topic Re: Do you experience CEC issues with an AV receiver? (XH90 series) in Android TV

Do you experience CEC issues with an AV receiver? (XH90 series)

Alon_Solo — Fri, 22 Jan 2021 16:37:55 GMT

I am a proud owner of the Sony's KD-85XH9096 and the Arcam's AVR 390.

I use the AVR as an 'external speakers' for my Bravia.

I have one extremely annoying issue with the volume control via the Sony's remote control. Each time the TV switches to 'external speakers' (either when I turn on the TV, or when I do it manually from the settings) its volume scale is set to zero (not to be confused with mute) and therefore I cannot lower the volume of my AVR (the TV blocks my strokes due to the fact it's internal scale is zero). When I cast with AirPlay, the internal volume scale jumps from 0 to 100 (max) and then I cannot raise the volume.

It's important to mention the 'internal speakers' have its own volume and when I switch to it, it works fine and remembers the last state.

With my previous TV (Samsung 55ES8000) I had no issues as they suppressed the volume scale of the TV and just passed-through my strokes to the AVR. This makes me believe that CEC isn't implemented correctly in my TV and my ability to control the volume via TV's remote is strongly compromised.

I am wondering if anyone else who is using an external audio system has same issues with CEC (aka Bravia Sync) Control?

Re: Do you experience CEC issues with an AV receiver? (XH90 series)

kdhuk66 — Sat, 23 Jan 2021 00:01:03 GMT

I assume that you are using ARC to the AVR...HDMI 3?

Anything else attached to the TV via HDMI sockets other than the AVR?

I had a Roku Express attached to my TV which caused no end of problems with the TV's communication with the AVR, especially the volume control....most likely due to CEC interference. After I removed it I have had no further problems.

Re: Do you experience CEC issues with an AV receiver? (XH90 series)

Alon_Solo — Sat, 23 Jan 2021 09:44:24 GMT

You assume correctly.

I thought that it goes without saying

I have nothing attached to my TV beside the AVR (unless you also count in the Ethernet cable).

My firmware is also up-to-date (to the new version from 2 days ago).

I just must emphasis that I can control the volume via TV's remote. The issue, as I see it, is the fact that my TV has its own internal volume scale instead of it being totally suppressed for 'external speakers'.

This behavior brings two negative side-effects:

1) The TV always turns with volume zero so if the sound is to loud, my TV's remote is useless because the TV "thinks" that volume is already at the very minimum and doesn't pass my volume decrease strikes. When casting the scale jumps by itself to 100 (MAX value) so I can not increase to volume in this scenario.

2) When I hold any of the volume keys on TV's remote, the volume on the AVR slowly changes while TV's scale is accelerated and can quickly reach MIN or MAX volume and block farther strikes while AVR's volume (the only one that counts) is left far behind.

So this looks like a pure software bug that the TV not only has a dummy volume scale for 'external speakers' but this scale constantly goes by itself to MIN or MAX volume and blocking the pass-trough of my volume strikes to my AVR.

On the other hand, I think that such a significant issue can't hide from Sony's eyes for so long and therefore I want to ask this community in anyone else is experiencing similar issue with an AVR or I have some local issue with my TV.

Re: Do you experience CEC issues with an AV receiver? (XH90 series)

williamfsmith — Sat, 23 Jan 2021 10:04:42 GMT

I use a Yamaha AV Receiver connected to the TV by optical which renders the TV remote volume inoperable (as its "fixed volume") (XG9505).

I have a Harmony remote that controls all my sources and having specified the Yamaha AV controls the Volume, it works perfectly.

Re: Do you experience CEC issues with an AV receiver? (XH90 series)

kdhuk66 — Sat, 23 Jan 2021 10:46:49 GMT

I have a KD-XH8505 and when connected to my AVR (Pioneer VSX-S520D-B) the TV and AVR remotes work in unison when controlling the volume (ie they both have the same effect when the TV sound is set to audio system) If I switch to TV speakers the volume is not necessarily at the same volume setting as it was when connected to the AVR - ie it does have a separate internal volume scale but this is ignored.when sound is set to audio system.

HDMI-CEC, I assume, is turned on in the AVR's settings.? If so, I'm not sure what's going on in your set up...?

Re: Do you experience CEC issues with an AV receiver? (XH90 series)

Alon_Solo — Sat, 23 Jan 2021 12:27:12 GMT

Thank you William.

Unfortunately, this isn't helpful as digital (S/PDIF) connections like the optical you use, don't support CEC (or any full-duplex communication protocol) and therefor you can't control your AVR's volume from you TV. I use HDMI with CEC which allows me to control the volume from TV's remote but it has glitches that I wonder if other HDMI users have.

BTW, why don't you use ARC instead of optical? Does your Yamaha is an HDMI-less oldtimer? ARC also brings CEC and DD+ to the table and allows you to use one cable less

I also have a Harmony remote but this is a workaround that forces me to give up the built-in mic in Sony's remote. Nowadays, I don't really need the Harmony and Sony's remote is enough but the volume issue forces me to use additional remotes or get up to spin the volume ***** on the AVR.

Re: Do you experience CEC issues with an AV receiver? (XH90 series)

Alon_Solo — Sat, 23 Jan 2021 12:42:13 GMT

Thank you kdhuk66.

I think you didn't describe anything different from what I did. Let me ask you two guiding questions:

1) When you use 'audio system' does your TV pops-up a volume scale if you using TV's remote to control the volume? If so, does the volume (ie the numeric value) is same on your TV and AVR?

2) When you switch to 'TV speakers' and back again to 'audio system' does the TV's volume scale is being set to zero? If so, can you lower the volume of your AVR with Sony's remote?

All my settings are fine. It's just the fact that my Sony has its own scale for my audio system and it blocks volume control once it reach MIN or MAX value regardless of the AVR's real volume. My previous TV (2012 Samsung model) is working fine once I connect it therefore it is solely the implementation of CEC by Sony which uses a dummy volume scale instead of pure pass-trough via CEC.

Re: Do you experience CEC issues with an AV receiver? (XH90 series)

kdhuk66 — Sat, 23 Jan 2021 14:06:05 GMT

The answer to question 1 is there is no pop up on screen if I'm using the AVR remote ....However if I then use the TV remote there is a screen pop up and it matches the value on the AVR

The answer to 2 is NO . The TV remembers what value it was the last time it was set to TV speakers only - it does not reset to ZERO. ( at this point the AVR remote has no effect (of course).with the AVR showing a muted sound indicator)

If I set TV back to audio system the TV remote and the AVR remote can both be iused and the value is set to the original AVR value.

An afterthought... My AVR volume scale is 0 min-50 max just wondering what scale the TV is when set to TV speakers... I shall check.

It's 0 min - 100 max... I thought they might be the same but they're not.

Re: Do you experience CEC issues with an AV receiver? (XH90 series)

Alon_Solo — Sat, 23 Jan 2021 14:12:15 GMT

I have 0 to 100 scale on my TV for both the 'TV speakers' and 'audio system' (my Arcam AVR has a scale of 0 to 99). My 'TV speaker' scale works fine and it consistent with its last state.

For me, each time I switch to 'audio system' (either manually or automatically when I turn on the TV) the TV shows me volume ZERO (and it is never syncs with AVR's volume) so my TV remote can control the volume only in one direction - UP and each time we turn on the TV when the kid is sleeping we are jumping in panic to lower the volume with AVR's remote or the volume *****.

Re: Do you experience CEC issues with an AV receiver? (XH90 series)

royabrown2 — Sat, 23 Jan 2021 15:32:12 GMT

@Alon_Solo

On my satisfactorily working Samsung JS9000 to Yamaha YSP-2500 ARC connection, there is a volume scale on the TV and a volume scale on the Yammy, and they are not the same (except at 0 on both). But as I increase the volume on the TV remote, both scales climb, the TV to about 20, and the Yammy to about 80, beyond which it is uncomfortable.

Switching the Yammy off at any point, the TV continues through its own speakers, at very much the same subjective volume.

So I would conclude that it is not a bug to have the TV volume moving on one scale, and showing this, while the device out on ARC moves on another scale, linked and related, but not the same, albeit giving about the same SPL.

But everything else you describe, which departs from the intuitive operation of the two devices that I describe above, is a bug. Or possibly several bugs.

Re: Do you experience CEC issues with an AV receiver? (XH90 series)

kdhuk66 — Sat, 23 Jan 2021 16:28:47 GMT

So, on my TV (0-100) the on screen pop up volume follows the AVR (0-50) scale from 0 up to 49. Then on increasing again the pop up suddenly says 100 and the AVR display shows "Max".... 🤔

Re: Do you experience CEC issues with an AV receiver? (XH90 series)

Alon_Solo — Sat, 23 Jan 2021 22:47:50 GMT

@royabrown2

Sony has a separate scale for its own speakers which is not effected by the dummy scale for the external audio system. As I see it the scale on the TV must me either suppressed, or in sync with the AVR. Showing a non-relevant figure on my TV while the relevant figure is on my AVR doesn't make any sense. I could live with a dummy figure but the fact it is always 0 at power-on and blocks the volume down key is unacceptable.

Re: Do you experience CEC issues with an AV receiver? (XH90 series)

Alon_Solo — Sat, 23 Jan 2021 22:52:36 GMT

@kdhuk66

So your TV is communicating successfully with you AVR and the volume is in-sync like it was with my previous Samsung TV. Therefore it is a local issue with my new Sony TV. Hard to blame the AVR which worked fine with the old one.

Re: Do you experience CEC issues with an AV receiver? (XH90 series)

royabrown2 — Sun, 24 Jan 2021 09:08:16 GMT

@Alon_Solo

Is what you are saying here is that when my Samsung TV says volume 20 on its own speakers, and the Yammy is switched on, the TV should switch to showing the same 75 volume number that the Yammy says?

I wouldn’t agree with that.

I am happier that the Samsung continues to show the number that it would be set to if it was putting out the same volume level that the Yammy is; and what is in sync is the volume level of the two devices, not the two numbers.

However, Sony need to resolve the bugs that are currently making your system unusable before we can get on to niceties like precisely how it should work.

Re: Do you experience CEC issues with an AV receiver? (XH90 series)

Win_88 — Tue, 26 Jan 2021 18:59:16 GMT

Hi @Alon_Solo

You're absolutely right in the sense that this shouldn't happen, but we should start a process of elimination to figure out which part is causing the issue:

1- Try a different cable.

2- Try to disable/re-enable CEC on both sides.

3- If the two sides are up to date, perform a factory reset on each before trying again.

Re: Do you experience CEC issues with an AV receiver? (XH90 series)

Alon_Solo — Thu, 28 Jan 2021 01:56:06 GMT

@royabrown2

Well, it's a question of personal preference. I prefer to see the volume of my AVR on the screen as if it was its OSD. You might have your own preference. While I don't know what is right according to Samsung's engineers, I will be really surprised if they indeed match SPL as you say, as it requires a calibration and a measurement (what I believe the TV is not doing by itself) or some kind of a database for defined systems like soundbars (but not AVRs as you can never know what they are connected to and guess which SPL is produced at different volume levels).

Anyway, it's an interesting thing and my old Samsung's volume wasn't working this way.

Re: Do you experience CEC issues with an AV receiver? (XH90 series)

Alon_Solo — Thu, 28 Jan 2021 02:10:34 GMT

@Win_88

Hi!

Before I write anything, let me thank you in advance for you help. I also want you to know that I already tried anything I can think of before posting here.

1) The cable I am using is a Culb 3D certified HDMI 2.1 cable that I bought few days before the Sony was installed so it's still less than 2 month old. I tried some basic 1.4/2.0 cables that I have (my old TV was a FHD so 1.4 was more than enough). Today I tested a bran new Belkin 48Gbps certified and the result was the same CEC is working fine except the volume sync with the AVR.

2) Done it too many times to be able to count.

3) Done this too. No change. Just a big waste of time (specially with the AVR and its Dirac Live calibration).

So I have my fingers crossed in hope you will be able to come across something I missed. Can tell you that my old Samsung do sync with my AVR's volume so I strongly believe it's the new Sony TV that causing (or at least not preventing) the issue.

Re: Do you experience CEC issues with an AV receiver? (XH90 series)

royabrown2 — Thu, 28 Jan 2021 11:34:21 GMT

@Alon_Solo

I don’t know how the TV and the soundbar negotiate the volume increments, but they do. Maybe they swap percentages?

Some soundbars don’t have their own OSD, so it would be a problem for TVs to mimic this.

it will be interesting to see how your setup behaves once Sony get the bugs out, though.

Re: Do you experience CEC issues with an AV receiver? (XH90 series)

HannahEd01 — Tue, 09 Feb 2021 14:12:44 GMT

Hi Alon_Solo,

Just trying to understand few things, on your other TV that doesn't have the same issue, do the two scales match?

On the Sony TV when you are on zero, do you still get sound? When you are on 100, if you used the remote of the AVR can you raise the volume more?

Re: Do you experience CEC issues with an AV receiver? (XH90 series)

Derharne — Wed, 10 Feb 2021 13:11:30 GMT

KD55XG8796

I have exactly the same issue with my LG soundbar

I try to lower or raise the volume but because the TV volume has reached minimum it won't lower the volume or when the TV volume reaches maximum it won't let the soundbar volume go higher, this stops me using the tv remote for volume and I have to use the soundbar remote.

If I turn off the soundbar and use the TV speakers it's fine, this happens when adjusting the volume while connected to the HDMI ARC socket. Both volume scales go from one to 100 but the TV volume goes far quicker than the soundbar volume therefore reaching zero quicker and not letting the soundbar volume go lower.

I've tried numerous HDMI cables but they all do the same. It's very frustrating.